Yes I get it.... It won't be here in NZ anytime soon, but its a sign of things to come. Never thought I would ever say this about any form of EV but the thing seems freakin awesome.

0-100kph in 4.5 seconds, Huge tow rating, front trunk ("Frunk")

and the ability to send power back into your home in the event of a power cut was pretty cool. Range wasn't bad....depended on what battery option you wanted and what I later found out was that the 230 miles it was quoted was with 250kg in the back. This was for a 40k (US dollars) truck. I recon they will be a huge hit.

Only real competition is Teslas Cyber truck and the Rivian. Both are way more expensive, (and weird) Interesting times ahead.

There are many unanswered Qs which on a small scale may not be an issue - but take it to the end result and there are major problems.

Alan

Wrap them in concrete and sell them to china or the US to keep building walls! 

Yes, the battery problem is fairly obvious but so many people don't understand the impact of charging EV's will have. Energy costs are killing manufacturing in NZ, put a million EV's on the road and we will need much more power. Maybe go nuclear?  In reality it is a greener option than hydro and I suspect even wind farms. A lot of carbon used in making those things.

All our hydro generation is currently allocated, and all the low hanging fruit is already picked.

I hear the greens chanting solar. Good technology, with it's drawbacks. And a possible energy solution for many things.

But solar farms chew up large tracts of land. Some countries have large tracts of useless land to plant solar farms - eg deserts. For us it would mean substituting food production - ie GDP.

The problems are only just starting. The electricity capacity thing will hit us far quicker than we can resolve the supply problem.

Getting rid of Comalco will be a temp solution, but I think that capacity is already tentatively earmarked for H generation.

Alan

Not wrong - our local powerline company is proposing to install large diesel generators around their network to better cope with outages and peak supply. 

And I think the possible future for Tiwai Pt is for H generation. Again - lots of energy required to make it - the basic problem.

In simple terms, we have to find alternative viable sources of energy - enough to replace the FF fuel energy. And basically - according to all the wish list plans - very quickly.

The only option that fits that criteria is nuclear. So we will find ourselves between a rock and a hard place in short order.

Just look at the consent issues and opposition to the water storage dams.  On a trifling scale to what we need if new hydro was going to be a major player in future energy capacity. 

Alan

In a earth quake prone country  like ours there is absolutely no way it will ever happen. Not in a million years.

Dunno what the answer is..... 

Why they haven't developed some sort of tide generated power station with the amount of sea we have around us is beyond me.

No doubt the Greens would oppose anything like this too in case a penguin  got minced in it or something stupid. 

New solar farm planned at Whitianga is spaced out panels for optimal grass growth so is farmed as normal so not wasted space - every farmer should look at the model. Boom rich farmers.

Get hip with the times kids ...says old me, but you see my point.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/tesla-spring-crash-fire/285-c28a4993-5b5f-43f4-a924-e39638390647" rel="nofollow - https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/tesla-spring-crash-fire/285-c28a4993-5b5f-43f4-a924-e39638390647

Though my response is pretty basic and unintelligent is delivery debate wise. My point is economics drive change. Once the gov stops spending our millions subsidising fossil fuels and puts some into renewables the fossil dirty fuel suppliers won’t change, why would they. I wouldn’t. It’s not about change it’s about money and spin...that’s the life we were all born into. We just need to manage it better 

For the F50 will definitely need to have charger on drive way, and probably few solars panels and big windmill on roof of house.  Bit more to think about than trading up to one of those new tritons, but but F50 seems much more impressive truck.

fossil fuel is here to stay,why would a southisland fuels (npd) building new stations in the north,gull expanding.   Do not read of anynew hydro.  Turbines on the manukau or any other fast flowing harbour could work.

But the sediment inflow kills most of those propositions - massive maintenance costs.

Turbine wear, constant dredging.

Reel Deal - "Getting hip with the times"-  I have a house 100% solar. No grid power. Been that way for 8 yrs. Installed myself. Does that qualify?

Alan

8 years you say. You must have been a bit of a trail blazer taking a leap that long ago, liking the cut of your gib!. Prices would have been up there. My cheapest quotes thus far is full install with 5kw inverter for just under a $1000 a panel (18 Panels) plus they will throw in 2 more panels as a sweetener. Nearly all of my 5 quotes have said just plug into grid (quotes didn’t include battery) they say there is some game changer tech coming, one said it’s a super fast charging and super cheap buy price battery. Currently my power spend is $13 a day which includes a spa pool I figure costs about $30 a week to run.

I so long for the day to cut off from the grid. House is self sufficient in water and sewage so solar is the last step toward freedom and environmental friendly living. I wonder what all the power plants are going to do with all their excess power they can’t sell if more and more kiwis disconnect off the grid. ✌️

The panel costs hardly affect any solar economic calcs. Even if they were free it doesn't change much. Your $18k quote will be 80% hardware 10% panels and 10% install - approx. Right?

 The big costs are the hardware behind them - be it house hybrid or full (battery) solar , or solar farms.

We still have a way to go - power prices need to climb.

But ironically, it is in the interests of power Co's to have shortage of supply. Supply /demand and prices follow. So as a general policy I think you will find some reticence on their part in neighbourhoods converting to hybrid systems. Could be wrong, but on a large scale, it is not good for their business. Who knows?

Regards

Alan

Look up Canary Islands solar battery on YouTube. They have lots of wind and sun till night so had to keep using fossil fuels polluting their small environment and costing moon beam to source and generate.

Was a issue for decades. Then a bright spark who wasn’t influenced by the fossil fuel Corp spin thought of using a large quarry in the mountains to make a large lake. He sold the idea as a one of cost battery for ever solution. They installed huge pumps powered by solar and wind to pump a lake down by the city up to the empty quarry. Then installed large pipes down from quarry lake to low land lake and installed hydro generation. Boom day time excess power pumped water up. At night when power production dropped off they released the water and made electricity for the night period on the island. 

If people stopped saying “can’t, won’t, impossible” and opened their minds there are solutions out there even in making a large island self sufficient for generations. Nay sayers will be left counting their stock loses in shell Exxon, Total and other dirty companies stuffing this planet for money.

Read about a battery ship that can move charge from one country and plug into other countries grids. Much like a oil tanker. So much happening. 

It was an influencing factor but I probably would have bought the place anyway ...

WRT the Canary islands approach - the NZ government is talking about pumped hydro to act as a battery ... although I suspect it hasn't gone beyond talk at the moment

Alan

Yup, the Greens do not want any more hydro dams built even though once built are the most efficient, cleanest and public forms of energy generation. Wind turbines are one of the most expensive forms of energy generation including huge maintenance costs as well as visual and noise pollution.

Batteries in any EV can be recycled at huge cost both in energy and money.

Add to this the destruction of the earths surface and the attendant slave labour to mine the rare earth metals/elements required and they are not that green at all.

Finally, on top of not enough generation, there is the problem of domestic charging. Many new developments do not have or not enough parking so are we going to see huge numbers of extension chords hanging out windows and down driveways and across footpaths.

Yup. I would be into green hydrogen manufactured via hydro generation like a pig into muck.

Far better for the environment.

Better for the land, better for the people and better for manufacturing.

Two biggest advantages it has is there is no requirement for huge banks of heavy batteries or charging.

Has to be a win win for everyone.

Again, recycling and manufacture are a problem.

Every solar panel has hard to recycle manmade poisonous chemicals coursing through their veins.

Again, slave labour and abuse of third world countries is incorporated into manufacture.

You get nothing for nothing. Something or someone eventually has to pay the piper.

I remember now- some bunch of entrepeneurs got a few $M from Shane Jones' Regional slush fund to investigate this option. Never seen since - too costly.

Alan

What interests me re hydro and I get both sides of the debate on damming of rivers but we have existing infrastructure in place. Surely we can add to the turbines in place. Screw turbines in pipes on the outlets? Redirect outflow into more of a looped race with smaller hydro systems off them etc etc. 

it seems too obvious there must be a reason. But a domino hydro turbine system tripling the output from each dam would be primo.

Trust me the way they are being run currently is foolhardy at best and the chances of a major failures are extremely high.  IF your living in a town downstream of one of these dams, your living on borrowed time!

Two points -

I doubt that there is any such thing as "Green hydrogen", in NZ, as it takes electricity to make it, and there doesnt appear to be more significant green power generation available.

I suspect the biggest source of greenhouse gas into the atmosphere, is humans farting. Take about 7 billion humans each farting about, oh say 5 times a day (conservatively); thats a lot of methane! Farts are inflammable - so a system for collecting the fart methane could be a winner?

 

"I doubt that there is any such thing as "Green hydrogen", in NZ, as it takes electricity to make it, and there doesnt appear to be more significant green power generation available."

When you think about it, our energy supply is highly vunerable.

Some of the hydro schemes must be near 100 yrs old now (built circa 30's). The newest (Clyde) must be near 40-50 yrs.

Then two of our biggest hydro schemes are in highly unstable geologic environments - Manapouri and Clyde. Part way thru Clyde construction they discovered they were smack on a fault line. You better have faith in their engineering calcs for the remedial work.

But  ChCh type event near either of these schemes would be a scary thing.

Alan

It would only require a rental van packed with fertiliser, a few cans of diesel & a detonator .... park it on the outlet bridge on Lake Taupo ....

action the remote control detonator & Whammo .... several billion ltrs

of water would rush down the Waikato River destroying the all the hydro power generating stations in it's path.

Most of the lights around the country would go out, computer controlled systems would cease to operate & would only need a small squad equipped with torches to take over the country !

If you close your eyes and cross your fingers under ideal circumstances the solar panel folks argue a typical 20m2 panel installation can provide all an ‘energy efficient’ house needs annually. They note that is about a third of the actual current annual energy requirement per actual house. 

As for charging your car from the sun. Quick math shows that isn’t going to happen. If you assume an average 15,000km driven annually and a 500km range to a charge, then a 90kwH battery pack is going to take the entire output of that solar setup. And of course unless you have a battery pack to store the energy (very expensive) it will take literally days to charge your car each time. 

Batteries suffer from an enormous energy density problem and the resulting economics make them unattractive apart from a few very specific use cases. Ironically a roadie vehicle is one of those with relatively short drives to get onsite and the ability to charge and power tools etc..  You are going to be paying a pretty penny upfront though. Probably easier to just buy ICE and get on of those Cool charge anything battery pack devices that cost a few grand and run your tools off that. 

You could guarantee the clumsy apprentice would be smacking off ya wing mirror with a length of 4x2 within minutes of getting started in the morning.

I don't like my vehicle being anywhere near a construction zone unless its being loaded or unloaded.

Interesting comments regarding power supply ect.

If hydrogen is the way forward vs electricity , has there been any infrastructure built anywhere in the world to support it?

Another issue- how volatile is the stuff?

like are homes 10 blocks away safe if some retard has a slight hydrogen refulling accident at there local z energy station?

And it is a late starter compared to battery power, so the infrastructure is lacking - true.

But I think some of the fuel companies are putting their hands up to retail it. So that problem would be quickly solved. Again, prob not much different to the LPG network.

Alan

Or invest more heavily in hydrogen. 

Blue or green. 

I believe Australia is starting to install networks across for transport.

Many Scandinavian countries are well set up for Hydrogen.

Apparently the vehicles are pretty safe, however they have had the odd problem with filling stations.

The tanks now used in Hydrogen vehicles are reinforced carbon fibre.

My money is on H also. I would happily bypass E vehicles if I know H is on the way.

Alan

Very true but I wonder how many actually meet that criteria.

Less downside?

How much energy, resources and finances are required to remove the old blades, replace them with new blades, ship the old blades to probably the only place in the world that can recycle them and finally, recycle them?

Meanwhile the price of wind generation is still the most expensive coupled with noise and visual pollution.

Wind farms?

No thanks.

Wind most expensive? I'm calling BS on that claim. Even if you want to insist on geothermal base load to handle the intermittent nature of wind as if we haven't already got hydro, can you explain how it becomes the most expensive, as if other generation options don't have significant maintenance and decommissioning costs.

The hardest nut to crack just might be how the govt of the day resolves the issue of profitability of and therefore investment in, new generation infrastructure after 'dirty' peakers are phased out and the marginal cost of electricity and thus projected revenue streams of all forms of generation drop. It would make any generator, proposed or existing, very twitchy.

As to greens trying to reduce plastic in the environment with the first step reducing plastic bags and then cutting trees for appear bags. Trees are renewable and if the right species reduce earth warmth, erosion, create habitat etc etc. while plastic if buried last thousands of years and if in the environment also lasting hundreds of years slowly breaking down smaller and smaller till digested by the food chain be it humans animals plants macro and micro organisms etc. 

Enjoying this thread, interesting to see the varied ideas, knowledge, and opinions it’s these discussions that I hope our government is having ....hmmmm

Hi mate, have you worked out what the approx payback of getting solar is , ie how many years of power savings will it take to get back the cost of installing solar?

Likewise, I am enjoying reading this thread as well but must say am becoming increasingly concerned as to the true benefits or complete lack of in aiming towards being 100% ev in a few decades.

As for the suitability of ev's re towing, would imagine the bulk of the readers here are thinking in regard to boat towing.

 

It is yet one more aspect that it is difficult to decide if it is valid  info or not but was told at an ev dealers promotion event that the type of batteries required do not like being in the vicinity of a saltwater environment ... such as boat ramps & if they are then their life is dramatically shortened.

 

There are no new hydro schemes on the drawing board, and I am not aware of any geothermals - altho some are under investigation. They take years.

The Govt has pledged 100% renewable generation capacity by end of 2020s.

That puts a massive load on new solar and wind schemes.

Currently 15% gen capacity is FF. We need about 2% pa new capacity to stand still - pop growth etc. So by the end of the decade we need about 30% new renewable capacity, PLUS what is needed to convert to an EV fleet.

The numbers in this rush to be green aren't  adding up - like so many of this Govts numbers.

It really is cart before the horse. The renewable capacity should be in place ahead of converting vehicle fleets to EV.

Our power gen structure may be quite different in 20-30 yrs time. But there is a massive gap to fill meantime - and I have to wonder how much of it will be via FF.

Alan

Don't know how accurate that is but it's a bit scary, coming from an expert. 

OK fast forward a couple of decades & more the 50% of vehicles are EV which is great for lowering the omissions but seems like no one gave thought to the multitude of products that were affordable due to the fact they were a by product from the waste produced in the process of fuel refining. Now it is beginning to look as tho the fuel itself has become the waste product & unless we can find a viable way of producing all the other products once fuel refining is no longer economic.  However a certain demand for crude oil & diesel will still exist as container ships & heavy road transport will not run on a bank of AA so their fuel costs will have skyrocketed due to the reduction in demand & the loss of subsidies from the other products.

Unfortunately I cannot offer any answers, only questions, but would find it far less disconcerting if those claiming to be experts could offer viable projections.

Diesel & petrol motors simply can't match electric motors for torque, even more so at low rpm. There is absolutely a performance advantage with EV's. I just don't believe they are as 'green' as we're being told

Ya think a company like Ford is gonna spend 30 billion dollars on developing a truck that is a total lemon? There must be some sort of portable power bank  available in the future that could extend the trucks range if you are spending a few days away from a power source. 

The change over time from petrol/diesel to EV is gonna take decades, regardless of what this government would like to happen under her watch. 

EV's are more efficient than petrol or diesel vehicles - PoDV's ?

QUOTE]

Neither did we ... on reflection made you wonder what our parents did for entertainment .. I asked my 16 brothers & sisters if they knew, but they had no idea either.

To clear up your query fiddler I don’t use my truck to pull train carriages or use a train engine to pull my boat out of the water. Very creative way of thinking though. Point is electric motors tow well. Though some good points on power usage to do so I hadn’t thought through and the drain on batteries . My landcrusier 200 series when not towing my caravan used between 14-18litres per 100km when towing 25-34 litres per 100km so heavily reduced range by up to half so not too much difference with EV. If I had a EV that dropped from 300miles to 100miles when towing I’d be very very happy. I’m 20km from the ramp.

Technology is flying along. Mattoo good points and I also have in my lifetime watched incredible/ unbelievable advancements. I thought I was on another planet when I say a phone without a round dealer and you pressed numbers. Now home phones are history. Hanging to see what VW or Toyota brings out to compete with this lightening truck. A point not discussed is how they can sell so cheap?! 

Alan I’d suggest EVs traveling home won’t need to stop for fuel up as they would leave home fully charged.that’s a big benefit. Like having a farm fuel tank at your house. Full up every night sorted 👍😃

You are correct in that once up and running they are very cheap generators.

It is getting to that point that is expensive, financially and environmentally.

Recycling is another big issue, both financially and environmentally.

Someone mentioned they can now recycle the blades.

This also comes at a huge cost and huge energy requirement.

There is also not a quantitative figure for noise and visual pollution not to mention the detrimental effects on wildlife.

Namely birds, bats et al.

You get nothing for nothing.

Someone or something, somehow, somewhere always ends up paying.

The LCOE chart I posted accounts (with the rider that it's a model thus there are assumptions) for the capital costs of the respective new generation projects. Regarding consenting costs, the govt is well aware it needs to sort its **** out if their lofty targets of phasing out dirty peakers is to be met in time.

Regarding recycling blades, the key is to find an atrociously dirty product like concrete and make it greener with the processed results of the blade recycling. The environment is actually if not better off as a result then virtually unharmed overall. If I'm not mistaken it's already being done overseas. It's also processing that could be done here in NZ.

Regarding wildlife, are you aware those that can't meet the grade don't make it through consenting processes and many of those that do actually improve outcomes for wildlife? We've had 20+ years to sort this in NZ and the track record suggests the original objections have proven largely unfounded and the proof of improved outcomes is evident for those willing to research it further. there are even examples of action groups vehemently opposed to a new project on enviro grounds turning into supporters of it over time.

 

Appreciate our debate. Hopefully everyone, including myself is learning something.

Read an article approximately a month ago where it was estimated up to half a million birds, bats and other fliers (America???) had been killed while accidently flying into blades. This mortality was estimated to double over the coming years as more farms came on line.

The land under and around the turbines was useless except for stock and even then, tests/monitoring showed there was an increased impact on them as well from noise and vibration (sonic??).

Once again, if memory serves me correctly, it was from America.

It's cool how we can dive into all sorts of things while discussing an EV ute that's not even available here and won't be for a while.

Part of the consent for windfarms is monitoring of wildflife impacts. Research here has cast doubts about projecting overseas experiences to a NZ context because the data doesn't reinforce a reliable correlation. In fact, and specifically, here in NZ, bat strike research from the monitoring of one wind farm was halted (with DOC's approval) with two of it's five years left to go , presumably because the results just didn't show much of a significant death rate in the preceding three years of study. That's not to say birds aren't being killed at the wind farms. They are.It's exactly that sort of data capture that helps guide future site selection and puts the kill rates into context against all the other human-induced bird deaths.

Do we blanket the hilly countryside with huge wind farms? Hell no. But it has a role to play and the NZ-specific data we have captured as a result of a few research studies on NZ sites, and the resource consent monitoring conditions of almost every project approval, means we can get pretty bloody accurate about what's a good site for the wildlife/environment as well as generation potential. Given the LCOE is remarkably low for wind generation, and we have a gaping hole in our future generation needs, it's an option that has significant merit and plays to one of our comparative advantages - our geographic location.

Regarding the impact on stock, I'm on farms for large chunks of each Summer so have a reasonable handle on the rural/farmer mindset. If the returns per Ha are greater for a mono-culture like P.radiata than for running stock there, they'll carpet that area with pines if they can afford it. Likewise for wind farms and, if I'm not mistaken, farmers do pretty bloody well from leasing their hilltops and access to them to wind farms in NZ, compared to other land uses. They also get use of the upgraded access roads, a large part of the land of the windfarm after the construction (because the footprint is so low), and really only have a few conditions to worry about such as not planting pine anywhere that's going to adversely impact revenue of the windfarm.

MATTOO, if it is in a NZ context, can you reference your claim of premature retiring of wind generation, as opposed to upgrading to overall more capacity please?

Solar farms I believe are guaranteed for 25 years so no really flash in the pan. Recycling is a concern and not something I know too much about re solar etc. 

Solar and wind farms would cost way less than a coal plant plus all the roaring and rail infrastructure so the way to go and a lot cheaper to produce the power with the biggest point they hardly pollute when making power which is the goal. 

An uneducated dream would be the government subsidies every farm in NZ making them have 100 minimum panels scattered so they don’t hinder their production. Spread out 4 -10m with the plus of giving shade relief to those bad practise treeless paddocks currently about. The gov shares revenue till their investment is returned and the farmers get another good income stream on going. That’s a win win win electricity production now the battery be it ponds or manufactured needs some cunning concepts us kiwis are good at coming up with.  

Now if a car is real eased in the USA how long before they get to NZ ? They will be in demand at the USA $40k price point damn!!

The tech is at a stage that the farms don't even need to poke their heads above ridgelines to be financially feasible these days, and the modelling of wildlife impacts has evolved considerably.

And here's the hypocritical rub - there are many and greater human-induced causes of bird deaths yet we turn a blind eye to the others while shining a spotlight on proposed wind farms.

I just have to laugh at some of the hype and spin peddled by this govt (not that it's any different to any other govt) and the lofty targets that we don't have a snowball's chance of meeting. Disruptive doesn't even come close to explaining what'll need to happen to achieve such transformations. Meantime, we have some perverse incentives for not reaching these lofty targets and I haven't yet found what the govt is planning to do about addressing them.

I posted earlier that the methanex plant was asked to reduce production - to free up more gas for power production.

Now chuck a whole lot of EVs in to the mix.

Alan

We have a massive  natural resource right under our feet.... and the reality is we will soon be SHIPPING  the stuff over because society can't simply stop using it as quickly as  jacinda would like us to. Not for decades.... In fact we are doing the bloody power company a massive favour by using it. Totally absurd. Im still to this day trying to figure out how someone so unqualified was able make such a stupid short sighted , self serving decision.

NAIL, HEAD, HIT.

Really, really dumb, NZ needs foreign investment from oil and gas companies rather than blocking future investment.  All in the guise of being green.

Alan

 Already touched on solar charging cars no where near a grid, maybe the grid will become like the copper line one today soon.

 Maybe make a bundle deal, buy a EV but you must have solar to charge, but battery is the goal so can charge over night though it is the off peak time due to lowest use currently for solar grid connections.

 Farms with solar or turbine tax breaks or subsidised payback scheme. Gov puts battery development be it natural or manufactured as highest priority... anyone else with problem solving skills to add ideas? It’s these people who make a difference. 

I remember reading a ancient newspaper article in England about the nay sayers when coal powered boats came on the scene from the sailing industry. Similar comments as coal power was still developing. Eg you couldn’t carry enough coal to go anywhere significant, too heavy when carrying all needed fuel waste of time coal believers were wacky with no grip on commercial reality. Cost too high etc etc sure the same nay sayers when coal went to liquid fuels etc etc.  it’s human nature to bag the unknown though there will be some who see a challenge and a goal and that’s enough, and the world changes again....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/125382924/the-ford-maverick-is-the-small-ute-we-deserve" rel="nofollow - https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/125382924/the-ford-maverick-is-the-small-ute-we-deserve

The 2x4 option looks useful.

Alan

Reduction in stock numbers, big increase needed in solar/wind generation, banning imports of petrol/diesel cars, phasing out gas in domestic use etc etc, and only electric planes for domestic flights by 2030. Really??.

Alan