tying good leaders
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Category: Saltwater Fishing
Forum Name: Saltwater Flyflingers
Forum Description: A forum for saltwater fly fishing enthusiasts
URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16714
Printed Date: 23 Jul 2026 at 4:30am
Topic: tying good leaders
Posted By: Memorymaker
Subject: tying good leaders
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2006 at 8:47pm
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Learnt a lot about the need to tie good leaders from this trip with Clark, should we tie things with multiple joins or just run a straight piece of nylon, in my opinion anything with a join offers a chance for failure, and i guess the nature of the SWF tends towards giving no line so whats the need to tie a shock leader, in this clip there are two instances where leaders let go, and in my experience to date that is basically the only time you will lose a fish in this manner and was that a 9 wt
http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j74/5Yellowfin/?action=view¤t=094e2793.flv">  ------------- Fish don't make mistakes |
Replies:
Posted By: Jaapie
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2006 at 9:23pm
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Lionel,
You touch on one of the most important aspects of SWF.
IMHO, this is one of the areas that flyfisherman can make a difference. Poor knots are just inexcusable (and lets be honest they have happened to all of us).
With leaders and tippet setups, it all depends on what drives the angler.
By this I mean are you focused on fishing IGFA rules, or are you interested in just catching a fish no matter what. I remember Craig referring to some of his leader setups as DFWM setups. (Don't F**k With Me setups)
Kind of like 35 pound straight tippets.
In any case, just coming back to your original question, there are differing opinions on leader setups just as there are differing views on doubles on mainlines for game fishing. Some of the Hawaiians advocate no doubles and prefer to connect mainline straight to snap swivel with the argument that knots mean a weak connection....something I think you are referring to here Lionel.
The reason for the knots in SWF setup is for the lengths of differing material at different breaking points to help the leader unfurl. This means that momentum is transferred along the line to help the fly turn over. Obviously with all these knots, there is a point of weakness, unless they have been tied properly.
There has been much written about knots and their ultimate integrity. The Bimini has been proven to be as close to 100% as you get along with a few others.
Some of the offshore setups we use are really straight forward. It entails a whipped loop section in the flyline attached to a butt section of about 80 pound nylon. In this there is a loop to which we attach a section of about 50 pound nylon and to this we attach the class tippet. Nothing special, but enough of the staggered breaking strength to help unfurl the fly.
In any case, no matter what system you do use, make sure that the knots you tie are good. With regards to the shock tippet question - The short shock section they use is simply to avoid being bitten off or rubbed off by toothy fish or fish with rough mouths during an extended fight. Usually a heavier section of mono or wire than the class tippet being used.
I'd hate to be the client and one of the knots pops like in the video
 Lionel, I think you may have noticed some of my class tippet setups I sent to you with the flies and how the knots have been configured to also act as a type of shock absorber. Big help in some of the lighter line classes I like to fish.
------------- "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught,will we realize that we cannot eat money" - 19th Century Indian Creed |
Posted By: UKfisher
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2006 at 10:25pm
| Kev, that's interesting that you use whipped loops on your fly lines. How come you don't use braided loops?? Do any of you guys ever use the Aussie style plait in your SWF leader set-ups, or always opt for the bimini? |
Posted By: Jaapie
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 11:38am
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Tobes,
Yeah the whipped loops on the flylines was something that I wanted to do once, and the loops would be there for eternity. They do work very well, but do involve a bit more work.
Honestly, I'm not sure they do make much more of a difference than the standard braided loops. The braided loops I use on the fly line connection though are not the normal 50 pound nylon types most others use. I prefer a section of 80 or 130 pound dacron that we use on the big game rigs in Cairns to form my loop. Exactly the same as making normal connections and I do like to whip the dacron onto the line for extra security.
Works well and the 80 pound butt section snugs up really nicely to this loop without being too bulky.
I have used the Aussie plait in my setups, but I can tie 10 bimini's in the same time I can tie one plait. Not very co-ordinated with plaiting things..... so stick to things I know I can do well. The plait is very good if tied well and tied tightish so there is no slip. Works well as a type of shock absorber too.
I'll get back to you on Mexico for next year. Just working out dates at the moment. ------------- "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught,will we realize that we cannot eat money" - 19th Century Indian Creed |
Posted By: Nikolaj Mathiesen
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 1:54pm
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I have been trying to land a big kingie for years of the rocks on IGFA leaders. So far all the big boys have busted me off. It has been interesting to see where the leader parted. when using shock tippet, as I used to, The leader allways came apart in the classtippet/shocktippet connection. I have now stopped using shocktippet for kingies mainly because when a 20kg kingie takes in a fly, all of the shocktippet usually sits inside its mouth anyway! Now the leader parts where classtippet is connected to butt-section...... One day it will happen! ------------- www.bigangryfish.co.nz |
Posted By: Jaapie
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 2:52pm
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Gee mate�.I�d be pretty concerned if this is the area where the leader always breaks. If I understand your sentence correctly, it indicates a poor knot connection. What knot are you using to join shock to class tippet? Perhaps you should practice these knots and test them on a set of scales. [QUOTE=mathiesen] I have now stopped using shocktippet for kingies mainly because when a 20kg kingie takes in a fly, all of the shocktippet usually sits inside its mouth anyway! Now the leader parts where classtippet is connected to butt-section...... One day it will happen! Big kings have quite a rough mouth and the use of a heavier piece of shock is more help than hindrance in my opinion. Again I would be a bit worried if the kings you are hooking take all the shock tippet into their mouths � 12 inches is a fair length! Don�t you feel the take? Even on a free sinking line and fly, you would be able to detect something has happened. In all honesty, the kings (and there have been a few good ones) I have hooked probably would have had the fly deepest about 5 inches down the throat. Usually always been with smallish flies too�� 3 inch flies and smaller. Big flies that have hooked fish have always been fair inside the mouth or around the lips, never much further than this. You say the leader now parts at the butt section. Again I would ask what knot you are using? Ideally, all leaders should break somewhere in the class tippet section ��.. this is the weakest link if rigged correctly. Test your knots a bit more on a good set of scales and see where the weak link is and go from there. Just an observation�� ------------- "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught,will we realize that we cannot eat money" - 19th Century Indian Creed |
mathiesen wrote:Posted By: Nikolaj Mathiesen
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 3:11pm
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I used allbright knot for the shock tippet. After my mexico trip I realized that all The guides over there are using huffnagle, so I might give that a go. For the butt to class connection I have either used double uni or bimini to uni. I just dont like all the connections and double lines. Just imagine that kingie racing around 40 meters down through weed and rocks.
On the big kingies I allways dead drift the fly in front of them. They pick it up no more than a meter down, and I see it all. It looks to me like a lot of shock tippet goes in the mouth. Last january i caught a 15kg king this way, and all ( in this case ) around 10 inches of shock tippet was inside the mouth.
------------- www.bigangryfish.co.nz |
Posted By: ian
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 4:40pm
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I dont fish for records but tend to use a "legal" setup simply so that in my mind I have caught the fish fairly, I can compare it to others and see how I'm doing. But does that really matter? Guess not but i dont like to catch a fish and feel like I cheated (recently saw a web site offering guiding saying trolled flies were fine, maybe but dont say its flyfishing!). however since I am not after records and release pretty much everything the straight 40lb leader is sounding mighty tempting simply to gain experience catching big fish and not spend time making up fancy leaders.
I have started tying a perfection loop, from butt to flyline join. What is the consensus on this knot, it sits really neatly and straight, is quick to tie. Does it work okay in FC? Prev I have used a Surgeons loop at this join.
good discusion though
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Posted By: Flyangler
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 5:08pm
I am fortunate enought to have a fly line that has a 90lb core and have this attached to about 400m of 80lb GSP. I am looking at using a 40 to 60lb straight leader and go after the biggest kingi or tuna I can find. The only knot I want in this setup is the knot at the hook and at the loop connection to the fly line. Not sure how fair this is but to catch a 30Kg + fish is going to take a fair bit of effort. Dont want to give it to much opportunity to head for cover. The rod will be a 14 to 17 weight.
Any ideas on a better leader setup would be most appreciated or maybe you might think I am slightly mad
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Posted By: Jaapie
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 5:35pm
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No mate...not mad at all!
Have a lash and post the pictures up once you have done it!
Out of interest, what is the flyline that you are using that has 90 pound cores. Looks like I need to get a dozen of them for myself.
For the purposes you describe, I would be inclined to use the 130# dacron loops for the connections on the fly lines. Whip them off when you finish!
The GSP is great stuff, but unfortunately knots are not one of its strengths. Again, I would feed GSP into the hollow core of the dacron and whip the ends. Only reason is that the diameter if not done this way is quite substantial. The dacron loop just fits snugger and lies flatter.
Another way for the GSP is to double the double loop....in other words create four legs which can be looped to the dacron on the fly line.
It's worked well for plenty of guys I know and minimises knots per se.
Ian,
The perfection loop is a great knot!
I also use the double surgeons loop for the same purpose.
Not sure what FC means mate.....not up with the play for all these computer terms
 Viking,
Huffnagle is definitely the way to go. It is a bulky knot though.
Another very good knot I was shown is the slim beauty. Works on the same principle as the Huffnagle using a stopper knot.
Just a few thoughts.... ------------- "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught,will we realize that we cannot eat money" - 19th Century Indian Creed |
Posted By: Memorymaker
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 6:18pm
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Ian I agree with you on this one, I'm not sure what your flyline strenght is but I guess it's 30lb, a lot has been said about having a lighter tippet than your flyline so as you don't lose the lot, I still maintain even if you use 40lb more or less if you have no join other than to the fly line you are better off, whats the point of tying a big ass shock leader for this type of fish if you only intend to fish a 20 lb tippet just tie a 20lb leader, the short bit of tippet will still get wasted on the rocks that is the nature of the beast.. ------------- Fish don't make mistakes |
Posted By: ian
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 6:40pm
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Kev, FC was meant to be fluorocarbon, my typing and spelling are shocking, hence the abreviation
I recently bought a DVD from USA (yes Chasing silver is superb but not teh one I am talking about!), from a shop called First Light Anglers. Its about catching bluefin to around teh 30-50lb mark on fly. has some good and some average footage. they have quite a good segment on rigging, largely similar to what keving talks about. Using braided dacron withe the flyline threaded about 2' into it, then looped and threaded into itself again etc. they used a bimini from gelspun to flyline via another dacron loop. I put a post up here a while ago with something about optimal twists in a bimini, some keen fisho determined the more is better approach is wrong, 12 twists is teh magic number. I also use spider hitches (fast to tie, esp standing in a pitching boat) and think they are good but not a sleek through the guides as a bimini.
Might be a wind window tommorrow so I can do it instead of type about it!
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Posted By: Flyangler
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 7:39pm
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Hey Jaapie
These lines are not really available in NZ. I got mine direct from USA. I was looking at taking on the agency. I might consider it again if the demand is enough. This line is a floating line but they do have sinking lines with the same core.
They actually are one of the few companies using GSP as the core material.
PM me with your contact details and I will phone and tell you all about them.
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Posted By: Jaapie
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2006 at 8:18pm
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Enjoy it Ian....hope you do have a window! Wind this side is blowing like seven bast*ards. ------------- "Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught,will we realize that we cannot eat money" - 19th Century Indian Creed |
Posted By: UKfisher
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 3:49am
Flyangler, if you whack 40 or 60lb leader straight through to a fly line with a 90lb core, don't you run the risk of busting the rod, even if it's a 17wt?!? I thought that even a 17/18wt would break before a 10kg tippet if you put enough pressure on? Or am I way off with this?
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Posted By: Flyangler
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 8:34am
Could be a possability. I would think it depends on how you fight the fish. You will break any rod if you put excessive pressure on it. You wouldnt be able to fish with the tip in a high position as this will put exessive strain on the rod. a lower rod tip will prevent an excessive arc forming in the rod thus helping prevent it from breaking. Not sure if I explaned myself correctly but I hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say.
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Posted By: FishMan
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 9:05am
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Yes, I'm starting to think this is all getting a bit silly. There are, after all, ways of playing kingfish that will encourage them not to dive for the bottom; and fly rods are easily the best rods for exercising these 'softly, softly' techniques. If we go down the brute force road we are effectively left using noodle sticks spooled with unbreakable handlines. There has to be better options.
My present leanings are towards creating reliable breakaways in moderate tackle e.g. a blood knot in a fifteen kilo straight through leader will reduce the breaking strain down to about ten kilo and be the first thing to break on a reefing. This gives the king, snapper, or trevally quick freedom and saves your line.
Also I'm starting to think that a short lighter tippet might be the go. I'm sure everyone has discovered that the patch of line directly in front of the flyline connection gets the most grief on a reefing and is the portion of leader most in need of upsizing. Maybe a standard leader going from a heavy connection to a lighter tippet may then be the go. Shock tippets don't seem to work - the tippet rubs along the rocks and then rubs onto a lighter portion of line....obvious why really.
Its an area where more work is needed.
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Posted By: Flyangler
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 9:29am
I am not advocating using brute force to fight a fish I am mearly saying if at some point I need to apply pressure to prevent the fish from goint into some form of structure then I have the option available. My normal leader is 20 to 25lbs but I also have the option of going higher if I need to. Also the thicker leader will also be able to take a lot more chaffing than the ligher leader and this would depend on the target species. Hope that make sence
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Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 10:34am
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I agree Craig... I have tried the heavy handed approach and it just ends up an invitation to lose more gear, IMHO.
I don't use bloods anymore as I've found the good old triple surgeon's more effective on the slightly harder fluoro I prefer these days. In the clip shown the fish reefed me, not really an issue with any knot... The area you say gets the most attention is what I have also found to be area that gets the most abuse and so I still favor a straight leader tied with a guides Bimini to form a short double (6 inches if you want) at the butt. This is a pretty simple connection and so reliable I reckon every angler should learn it... you don't need toes and knees it should be done in the hands and even with my messed up teeth I can still manage to hold a tag end ...
  It takes less than a minute to tie once practiced. I used to use shock tippets in the belief that long protracted fights could cause wear on the tippets and I guess if I was chasing IGFA in small line classes this could be an issue but as I customarily use 10 - 15 kg straight leaders I find these adequate. Yes you get reefed, but that is something that will always happen to anglers fishing against such tough fish... for me, it's part of why I play the game.
The new DVD "Arbor to the Fly" which I am trying to finalize NZ rights for (The presenter is all go just trying to deal with the marketing company) has some exceptional solutions to these situations and they are from an angler who has held several world fly records including that for yellow fin (Recently broken in SA). The interesting thing for me with all of the "fancy" knots around is that the good old triple surgeon's, the simplest of all knots next to a granny, is still the best, by test, for joining two different diameter lines, especially fluoro. I liked this because it's simple, but more so because I found the Albright somewhat unreliable in Fluoro or hard mono, same for the clinch and blood.
I have used the triple surgeons on GSP backing to form a loop and then doubling again as advocated by Kevin and it certainly makes a strong connection but can, I find, dig into the coating of a fly line on a protracted fight with big fish and is a nightmare to extract off braided loops. I would still use it if I had to re rig on the water but do prefer braided loops for virtually every connection from backing to line and from running lines to shooting heads right through to the end loop to attach a leader to. I like Gudebrods black braid for this as it you get less issues with cuda's whacking the white loop which can be most annoying... You can color your loops using a permanent marker though and it does disguise them well for a while.
The new method I am using to rig the loops on GSP backing is the best I have seen and also comes from the DVD... I will try to explain but I fear it might sound more complex than it really is... it's simple and gives a durable 100% connection that doesn't bite into a line... and will last for years...
Make a 50lb or 35 lb braided loop (Depending on the lines you plan to fish on this rig.) No need to do anything to lock the loop at this stage... that comes later.
Using a piece of tippet wire fold it and push it into the braided loop above where the two sections of braid intersect. Push this down so it comes out of the tag end of the braided loop. Place the braid through the wire loop giving yourself heaps of tag to play with. Pull the braid up the center of the loop and out the entry hole.... This will give you a braided loop with a loop of GSP next to it. Pass the braided loop through the the GSP 5 times and place onto a nail or hook on your rigging bench. Now the best bit... Pull with even pressure on both sections of the GSP and it will seat down in a 100% connection over the braided loop (Similar to a nail knot) with absolutely no chance of it coming apart... this had the added effect of not only securing the two together but the knot locks the braided loop in a way it can never come apart. Using the tag end of the of the GSP to then do a series of half hitches over the end of the braid and finish with a five turn risutto finish (Fyfing) and you have an amazing smooth connection. You can whip it if you wish but there is no need. You can then also seal the whole thing with something like thinned shoe goo or Rio Knot sealer....
I know it's hard to describe these things and if I've made it unfathomable I apologise... you'll just have to wait to see it in person or on the DVD.
Simple is best! I don't think you have to worry about fishing outside of IGFA Ian... In trout fishing (The foundation of fly fishing) virtually no one fishes to IGFA and no one considers anything "cheating" I think though, that this is a personal thing and what you feel comfortable with is what you should do. That's very much a personal thing I believe and should exist in everyone's fishing world...
All in all the final thing is to use knots and rigs you personally have faith in and leave it at that. Resign yourself to the fact many of these fish will absolutely dust us... that for me is the attraction of this side of fly fishing.
In trout fishing most of the fun for me is in fooling the fish, once it has taken the fly the thrill is there and the fight is secondary, especially dry fly fishing to browns, my favorite aspect. With most SWF situations I don't get the same thrill from fooling the fish as I believe it is easier to do, in general, in the salt than the fresh, but the fight is exhilarating and Adrenalin producing and that, by God, will do me!
This is another personal aspect and may not be viewed or felt that way by others.I also think both methods of fighting fish are valid. Morse's "Give no line" philosophy is valid and works in many situations but so is Craig's advocated softly softly approach, again in the right situation. It will depend on the fish and the circumstances and if you watched either of these "guru's" in action you will find they will use many methods in different situations and on different fish, it just takes experience to know when you will do what. Even the experts don't get it right every time... again part of the appeal I have no doubt.
Mathisen... if you are chasing IGFA off the rocks, especially if you are on the East Cape, you should give Mark Draper a yell. He is responsible for world record Kings off the rocks down there (Up to almost 50lb) and is, without question, the most successful by results, SWF guide in New Zealand, (he absolutely dominates the Yellowfin Fly captures in NZ). He does very little guiding now except for his old clients if he has time and spends the rest of his time on his Passion fruit Orchard. Personally having concentrated my efforts land-based around the Coromandel, if I was chasing IGFA I would be looking for the right terrain as opposed to the right leader... I have one ledge that has good numbers of Kingies (Generally get shots at 3 - 6 a day if lucky) and while the shore is rocky most all of the bay is sand and there is little structure to get reefed on. Long runs are the norm and softly works best as they tire themselves out dragging the line round.
Now I've moved it's only about an hour from home, as opposed to four hours for me last summer (Was still there almost weekly for a while
 ) so I plan on spending plenty of time there this summer... maybe I will tie some IGFA leaders after all...A word of caution in NZ about purchasing the Byford Leaders. While they are wonderful works of art etc I understand there has not been a new shipment in NZ for over 6 years, maybe 10... As they are mono this is well past their shelf life... While I love the workmanship of them I wouldn't trust one... unless I knew it was new.... Then I would unquestionably.
As always, others mileage may vary....
------------- http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier 
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Posted By: UKfisher
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 10:49pm
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Clark, where can you get hold of Gudebrod black braid?! Sounds like very useful stuff - I've been warned about getting bitten off by wahoo, cudas etc with the white braid and although I've coloured it in, it does come off slowly. Black braid would be ideal!
Whilst I'm a very inexperienced fly-fisho, I agree with you about trout-fishing vs SWF. As you say, tricking the fish is the exciting bit for me when it comes to trout fishing (particularly when visually fishing nymphs/dries), but it's the fight in SWF that is the real thrill!
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Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 10:54pm
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I got my supply in a Gudebrod splicing kit. When I have purchased their stuff by 50 meter spool it has been white, but in the splicing kits it come in 10 meter spools and is black... I will try to find out if you can buy it alone by the spool. Having said that, the 10 meter spools (35 and 50) in the kits makes a hell of a lot of loops....
It is an expensive, comparatively, way to buy it though.
------------- http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier
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Posted By: Memorymaker
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2006 at 11:29pm
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My reasoning behind using a straight to the bone leader is that if a fish is going to run you into a reef then unless you use a Craig scenerio, you are going to get reefed regardless what configaration you are running for a tippet, and even then you may well get wasted, I have now tried and tested a number of different configerations and my conclusions to date would read:
1 It really doesn't matter if I am running 15lb or 60lb trace if the fish reefs me I'm toast
2 I have trialled a number of different approaches once hooked, my observations are , that 10-12 kg fish can be usually subdued on the exsisting tackle and methods I curerently employ.
3 Larger fish fall in the lifetime catch catergory, basically if the fish does everything wrong and the angler does everything right a chance at some type of personnel best or some sort of record is on the cards
4 All other things fall into this catergory, I still think basically rule number 2 applies, there at this point is no simple answer to landing big Kings, there are a lot of theories, surrounding the capture of large Kings yet very little proof to support, again if it was as simple as that we would be talking about the 30kg brute.
The cold hard facts are that it is a very tough customer regardless of what tackle you persue them on, you can expect to get dealt to. Leading fish away from a reef is your best shot , but hey we all know that and often attempt to do this but sadly thats applying pressure to the fish and they respond differently, I'm sure this offers the best chance of changing an outcome, but hey it's only a window of opportunity and a small window at that....
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Posted By: FishMan
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2006 at 9:22am
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Lionel,
I have deleted the first three lines of your post. Please do not post anything that gets close to being a direct personal attack.
This goes for everyone.
I would hate to have to delete or lock what is an interesting thread.
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Posted By: Pole Dancer
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2006 at 9:48am
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I think your observations are pretty close to the mark. People learn as they go. Lefty Kreh is 82 and still learning and most regulars here will recall those trips were to help you get started in SWF and I achieved that and regardless of our personal differences now and I am pleased another person in NZ got the starting info they needed. That some of the things I believe are things you have a different take on in light of personal experiences later is totally normal in the fishing world and absolutely as it should be. As you fish more you will discover and I am sure share, many of your thoughts on things and everyone's knowledge base grows. That is one of the reasons I started this forum was to give a central place for the discussion of personal experiences in SWF here that we can all learn from.
I recall the same day Mark Aspinall lost several fish because he used clinch knots in Fluoro and until he used the Lefty's Loop Knot I showed him he didn't land a fish. As with many things you can tell people things but until they experience it sometimes it doesn't fully sink in. In Mark's case the clinch had served him perfectly well on trout for over 30 years!
I certainly learn every time I go out. I think that's the nature of fishing and why it is a continually evolving sport and this aspect has to be the main attraction for many I am sure.
Regardless of the state of our personal relationship Lionel I wish you well in SWF I think you have a wonderful resource on your doorstep that many will find appealing and you will have a blast taking fly fishers out to the Volkner and White island for monster kings and it will keep things nice and varied and compliment your usual charter work nicely.
When I first began to get really interested in SWF I was fortunate, having been involved in the professional fishing world for so long, to have access to many of the leading SWF guys of the day. Many of these had been out there doing it for a long time and while SWF was almost unknown to most of the anglers of NZ those doing it learned from overseas and adapted it. I fished with people like John Fraser, Craig Worthington and of course as I have recounted elsewhere, spent three weeks fishing day in and out with Peter Morse. I gleaned a lot from them about fighting big fish on the fly rod and I put it into practice. I have spent a lot of time talking Mark Draper both at his home and on the phone in a never ending search for information. Any angler should take all of this information and put it into practice. We will all find that, over time, we will not agree entirely with what the "gurus" have to say but their information, having been there done that, is invaluable as a starting point.
Until I spoke to Mark Draper for instance I would not have believed landing a world record Kingfish of this size from the rocks was possible,
 Photo: Mark DraperThis is the world record but he also tells me they have had countless over thirty pounds, many over 40 and a couple between 50 - 60 from the rocks. Not all were on IGFA gear but it does give us all hope and knowledge these things are very doable. Even though I am a professional myself I would seriously consider paying Mark for some guiding, if he would do it, to get a handle on his techniques. Of course this also reiterates the wonderful resource the East cape provides. In researching this post I spoke to Mark on the phone for permission to his photos and we talked about this topic.
His advice is simple... "You need to cast to lots of fish... lots of fish... spend time finding where there's lots of fish and take it to them, get up them".
I think you have a great advantage Lionel in being able to readily access an area with a heck of a lot of big Kingfish... I am sure you will make the most of it and I can see some world records under serious threat this summer...
I didn't know Snapper would, in the right circumstances he described, take a popper...
 Photo: Mark Draper
Heck I wouldn't have even considered this possible on conventional gear...
 Photo: Mark Draper
and I wouldn't have been able to conceive of landing these on fly....
 Photo: Mark Draper
But listening to what these folks had to say gives you a start in the right direction and that's all anyone can offer. What I have to say about these things is simply my opinion and people can take it or leave but it does give someone a place to start as this forum did for you in the beginning. That's all any of us can offer. Both Peter Morse and Mark Draper have caught or been responsible for some of the largest captures on SWF in our neck of the woods and they are both firm advocates of the "Take the fight to the fish" style, but both also know there are other methods, as Craig has pointed out (And who has caught just as many fish as them I would add).
I think that with the resource you have on your doorstep and as you learn and adapt your fly fishing techniques over this summer the stage is set for you to become one of the leading Kingfish Fly charters in the country and I hope it is successful for you and you can enjoy advising people what works for you in the same way I have. I get a kick out of starting people out and helping. I take pride in spending time helping forum members get set to go and tackle Wahoo and am putting together info and flies for them as we speak for their next offshore adventure.... Maybe it's the guide in me, but I often get more pleasure introducing and helping people than catching the fish myself. I got a hell of a kick out of seeing that Wahoo picture... a species I may never catch myself.
Personally I have made a decision to not do much guiding anymore... After 25 years as a professional in this industry I have done enough and since I moved up here I have discovered just how much I enjoy this for myself and how much I want to keep exploring this and fishing for myself.... More about that later in another post....
It's only a few short months since 18th April when you first tried SWF and you have advanced your knowledge remarkably in that time by liaising with experienced fishos such as Kevin, Myself, Craig and others from this board and no doubt beyond. Until I started this forum that resource didn't exists so I take pride in that also. As I said I have no doubt that with the summer looming your knowledge is going to skyrocket given how well you already know your local fishery.
No matter that you and do not see eye to eye on personal issues I absolutely respect you as a charter boat captain and look forward to seeing you go from strength to strength in the SWF field. That we will end up disagreeing on a clinch or Lefty's or a Bimini or a surgeon's is not a matter for bitterness but more a celebration of this wonderful sport of fly fishing. ------------- http://www.clarkreid.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.clarkreid.co.nz FFF Certified Casting Instructor / Umpqua Designer Tier
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Posted By: Memorymaker
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2006 at 7:09pm
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Hi Craig,
It was not intended as a personal attack, your view from your moderators viewpoint is one I respect and of course I can not argue nor would want to for obvious reasons.
Clark, I totally appreciate the work and endless hours you put into the industry, without people like you I guess these types of forums would not exist and many people would not get to experience what our fabulous fishery has to offer, or at very least get some sort of guidence and opinion on where to start, opinions go and exist with any sport, as for our personal dissagreement we both know what thats about.
SWF is a part of what I do for sure and something I personally want to grow, not only from a business perspective but also from an anglers standpoint. Respecting others views and for the larger part of it that is all it is, an opinion.
I am very fortunate to be in a position to offer and deliver experiences to anglers from all walks of life, I am proffessional in my approach and saw an opportunity to introduce anglers to SWF as I am lucky enough to sit on a Kingfish mecca. Your offer from my very first post was overwhelming, and I was totally blown away of your offer to come stay and fish with me for a couple of days, and then the further experience with your friend, without a doubt I learned truckloads about SWF in that respect, your enthusiasim and your character make you a very likeable chap, and I hope you will enjoy your new location. ------------- Fish don't make mistakes |
Posted By: FishMan
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2006 at 7:47am
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No probs Lionel but I will delete anything that comes close. Even mild ribbing can look slanderous when written. Other forums (e.g. flylife) keep a very tight rein on their postings, even deleting whole threads regularly. It works very well for them and is essential.
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Posted By: Memorymaker
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2006 at 11:38pm
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Pleased Craig with that and I'm sure taking an industry standard in this case is the right approach ------------- Fish don't make mistakes |